A Sitdown with Rizin Fighting Federation’s Shingo Kashiwagi, Part 2

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A visit to Rizin Fighting Federation’s executive office yielded a sitdown conversation with Shingo Kashiwagi, who brings passion and a deep obsession with MMA to his work as he aims to create the best experience for fans around the world. He broke down what factors into Rizin matchmaking, reaching English fans, statistics, the pay-per-view business, tournaments, divisions and scandals while talking about the happenings on the frontlines in Japanese MMA. Read Part 1 here.

Now, Part 2 of our conversation:

Sherdog: I would like to discuss Rizin’s international pay-per-views. The number of Rizin events is increasing, as well as the number of Rizin brands, such as Trigger and Landmark. There is potential for a subscription-type service where people can watch all of the events at once, and it could include local promotions like Deep.

Kashiwagi: I can’t get into specifics about that kind of thing, but there have been some ideas about that. As you said, we used to have five to six events per year, so we didn’t have enough events to do a subscription or to set up our own channel. [Rizin President Nobuyuki] Sakakibara said that we will have 15 events this year. Therefore, we plan to integrate a few PPV websites into one where you can watch all of the events. We started Rizin Live and Exciting Rizin streaming by ourselves. That is for the Japanese market, but you can also buy it from overseas. In that case, though, the text is in Japanese and so is the commentary, so it’s a bit difficult for people from overseas. We’ve rented a place called Live Now, and Live Now is offering an English stream with English commentary and text, but we’re still in the process of gathering all of this content into one place.

Sherdog: That process is underway?

Kashiwagi: Since the coronavirus, we have not been able to invite foreign fighters, and so the cards have become more domesticated and Japanese-based. Therefore, PPVs can’t be easily sold overseas. It’s like, “Who is this fighter? Nobody knows him.” If we can get foreign fighters from other countries again, we can push our products to their home countries. We’d like to promote more international PPVs as soon as foreign fighters start coming in. So even though there are a lot of Japanese fighters [only] on the cards due to the coronavirus right now, we are very grateful to the fans who watch Rizin. I know that Live Now is a bit of an inconvenience at the moment, but we would like to try to make it more convenient in the future.

Sherdog: You have introduced fight statistics to Rizin, similar to how the UFC did with FightMetric. How do you plan to develop them in the future, and what are your thoughts on the potential for change in the sport through statistics?

Kashiwagi: The way that North American sports are approached is that all numbers are important because they are subject to gambling. Data can also be used for gambling, so I think that’s how it evolved. In Japan, there is no betting on sports. That’s why I think our introduction of stats was a little behind the times. As fans become more discerning, they want to know more about what’s going on during the fight. They want to know more data, so we’ve introduced stats so that you can see [not only] with replays of the fights but also when watching fights live. It’s not for gambling but for entertainment. Stats add a deeper view of the fights. I think the next step is to add [live] stats numbers to the broadcast.

Sherdog: It has recently been reported that the UFC may start a 105-pound women’s division. Rizin has a similar women’s division, super atomweight, but at a different weight (108 pounds). If the UFC’s 105-pound weight class is established, there will be an aspect of fighting for talent against foreign organizations, and there is a limit to the number of potential fight possibilities.

Kashiwagi: It’s hard. As for the atomweight division, if the UFC establishes one, it would be very difficult. There aren’t many organizations in the world that have an atomweight division. There are only a few, including us, One Championship (115 pounds), Combate Global and Invicta Fighting Championships. That’s about it. It’s always been difficult to find an opponent for Ayaka Hamasaki. I think that if the UFC created an atomweight division, it would swallow up all of the fighters from existing organizations and there would be no atomweight divisions outside of the UFC. I think the talent pool is overwhelmingly thin.

Sherdog: I recall that you were trying out the men’s strawweight division at one point and you signed Jarred Brooks, but the appeal of the strawweights was not yet understood by the audience. MMA Planet recently wrote about the possibility of MMA starting up in Lumpinee Stadium in Thailand, and I was wondering if there is a chance that Rizin may build a strawweight division in the medium- to long-term?

Kashiwagi: I’m also very interested in Lumpinee MMA, so I think it depends on that. There are some good strawweight fighters in Japan, but I don’t think there are any outstanding stars yet. I’ve always had the impression that the industry and division are only built by the stars and their power of attraction, so there is not that much star power yet. That’s why I made the Haruo Ochi-Brooks fight as a way to determine the best strawweight. I think we could make a division if we continued to do something like that.

Sherdog: I’d like to ask you about your cross-promotion with Bellator. It was a very exciting time when the UFC absorbed Pride Fighting Championships, and Wanderlei Silva, Quinton Jackson, Chuck Liddell, Mauricio Rua and others were competing against each other. Kyoji Horiguchi won the Bellator bantamweight title by defeating Darrion Caldwell and then lost it to Sergio Pettis in a huge upset. Those dramatic fights can only happen due to cross-promotion. If Horiguchi had not competed in Bellator, we would not get to see any of those good times or the bad. Horiguchi’s challenge created those scenes, and the excitement and depression that came along with it. Rizin champ Roberto de Souza recently challenged Patricky Freire, so hopefully Rizin will be able to do more of that cross-promotion in the future.

Kashiwagi: I agree with you. We want to do it. Cross-promotion looks easy, but it’s not. Both sides have their own reasons for promoting, and both sides have obligations to sponsors and broadcasters, so it’s something that needs to be worked out and coordinated. The relationship between Bellator and Rizin is based on the relationship between [Bellator President] Scott Coker and Sakakibara, and it was only through those discussions that we were able to make it work. If the current relationship continues, I think we will continue to see cross-promotions, and “Satoshi”-Patricky is really interesting. However, now that Tofiq Musayev has left [Rizin] to go to Bellator, I’m sure that there will be a lot of drama with that, as well. I’m looking forward to it.

Sherdog: When watching MMA in a large arena, heavier fighters are viewed as more powerful and appealing to the audience because it is easier to watch them from afar. On the other hand, if you are watching from home, you can focus more on fights in the lighter weight classes thanks to camera shots that display all of the action. We’ve seen that recently in the UFC, especially at 135 pounds. For Rizin, there is obviously a great focus on providing entertainment for fans in the arena, but with the coronavirus situation ongoing, streaming events has become more and more popular. How do you plan to continue to develop and promote your smaller fighters for the audience watching from home?

Kashiwagi: I think people already knew before that lighter fighters are a joy to watch. It’s been said that the most interesting weight class in the UFC is the bantamweight division, and the UFC is starting to recognize that. The flyweight division was abolished for a while, but they’re bringing it back. I think that people are getting the message, even through the screen. The flyweights and bantamweights are fast and can score knockouts. Featherweights and lightweights can do the same. Events need balance with the heavyweight division, though. If you only have the bantamweights at one event, you won’t have any balance, and I think it’s important to maintain that.

Sherdog: There seem to be a lot of promising prospects who came from the martial arts streaming program “Kakuto Dreamers.”

Kashiwagi: The guys who are in Shooto and Fighting Nexus, right? Rinya Nakamura and Sho Usami are fighters that management company LDH have. They are very strong, and I think they are as good as their reputations are. It would be great if they could be trained well and became the next generation of fighters. When the timing is right, they may have a chance to compete in Rizin.

Sherdog: There are several fighters from The Outsider and other underground fighting events who are now fighting in Rizin, but the underground event scene has lost a lot of its fervor. An increased number of amateur fighters from those types of events could be beneficial. For example, Rizin Trigger events could showcase top amateurs from each region as a way to bring in new viewing audiences.

Kashiwagi: I think that’s a possibility. As for the Trigger events, there is a concept of signing fighters who are doing well in their region and letting a wider [Rizin] audience know about them, but we can’t pick up everybody. We also think it’s important to maintain a good relationship with the promoters in each region, so that we don’t compete with each other in terms of schedules and events.

Sherdog: After Rizin 33 on New Year’s Eve, Yuta Kubo stated that “Shibatar” (Hikaru Saito) had asked Kubo to go easy on him in a pre-fight direct message on social media and that it had affected the content of their fight. Since there was no mention of this arrangement in the contract, is it fair to say that there will be no punishment and that there will be a clause to prevent this from happening in the future?

Kashiwagi: That’s right. I think I’ll deal with it as Sakakibara has stated. I don’t think there are many people who have done that before. There is always a first time for everything, and of course, we did not expect that the fighters would communicate with each other before the match. It is a learning experience. That’s how I see it.

Sherdog: In foreign countries, fans can be very picky about such things, and there was talk about how this type of incident had occurred during other MMA events in Japan in the past.

Kashiwagi: It’s a regret for me when I hear people say that. When I was in the United States and sending fighters to Dream, I would hear things like, “If you go to a decision in Japan, you’ll never win,” and “They’ll do anything to make you lose.” That’s what I heard, so as a Japanese man, I don’t like to hear such things when I am in the same industry. We’re serious about our business. When I joined Rizin, I wanted to make sure that there were no such things. Some promoter judgments are accepted in Japan because there is no commission, but for Rizin, we have a commission. We have a third-party organization called JMOC (the Japan MMA Officials Committee). There’s nothing for the promoter to say about competition or the judging. I can proudly say to some prejudiced fans overseas that I am not suspicious of the current [fights in] Rizin.

Sherdog: “Shibatar”-Kubo was also not covered by JMOC.

Kashiwagi: “Shibatar”-Yuta Kubo was not, no. There was a large weight difference, so JMOC communicated with the California State Athletic Commission and Jason Herzog—a very successful referee who does referee seminars—and JMOC said that they could not regulate it. Since it was a TV event, there was a show-must-go-on sort of perspective. As the promoter, we wanted to have the fight, but JMOC has a policy and they could not approve that match. We want people to enjoy Japanese MMA. JMOC is a referee organization that we trust to handle our competitions, so we hope that people will recognize that, if JMOC is present, there is no doubt.

Sherdog: You said there will be no punishment for Shibatar and Kubo. Will you have them back in the future?

Kashiwagi: I think that is something that needs to be discussed. As President Sakakibara has said, he doesn’t want to be small or to not take risks, and I think that’s the charm of Sakakibara and Japanese MMA. I think there is a difference between competition and entertainment. Personally, I don’t want to be involved with that type of incident anymore, but there is a balance within the company, so I don’t know about that.

Sherdog: For fans abroad, it makes sense to watch and follow Rizin. Prochazka will challenge for a UFC title in the future, and Nemkov and Cappelozza are both champions. All came up through Rizin.

Kashiwagi: That’s right. The next UFC champion or the next Bellator champion may come from Japan. I think that Rizin has a great scouting ability and matchmaking when it comes to building up such athletes, so we hope that everyone will take note and that fans who only watch the UFC will give Rizin a try.